In this episode of The Outdoor Station podcast, host Bob Cartwright converses with Dr. Rose O'Neill, Chief Executive of the Campaign for National Parks, about a pivotal legal case concerning wild camping rights in Dartmoor National Park.
In this episode of The Outdoor Station podcast, host Bob Cartwright converses with Dr. Rose O'Neill, Chief Executive of the Campaign for National Parks, about a pivotal legal case concerning wild camping rights in Dartmoor National Park.
The case, brought to the UK Supreme Court by landowners Alexander and Diana Darwall, challenges public access to wild camping.
Dr. O'Neill discusses the historical context of our National Parks, the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on public attitudes towards outdoor spaces, and the potential implications of the court's decision for national parks across the UK. The episode underscores the importance of preserving access to natural spaces.
Voice Over 00:00:01 You're listening to a download from the outdoor station. Co.Uk. Number 578.
Bob 00:00:12 Hello and welcome once again to another podcast here on the outdoors Station, where we delve into the stories of people and places our relationship with the outdoors and how we explore it. We're also interested in decisions that shape our natural landscapes, and explore the policies and people behind the protection of our most cherished wildernesses. I'm your host, Bob Cartwright, and today we're focusing on a legal battle that you may have seen mentioned in the press, one which could have far reaching implications for how we experience one of England's most iconic national parks, Dartmoor. The right to wild camp on Dartmoor is under spotlight once again, this time at the highest court in the land. Two landowners, Alexander and Diana Dowell, are challenging a Court of Appeal ruling that grants the public the right to pitch tents in certain areas of this national treasure without the landowner's permission. It's a case that has sparked heated debate, and last week it reached the UK's Supreme Court. At the heart of the dispute is the balance between protecting Dartmoor, a fragile ecosystem and preserving the public's access to open air recreation.
Bob 00:01:47 The Dartmoor National Park Authority, along with numerous campaigners, stand in opposition to the Da Wales Appeal defending the right to wild camp as a tradition that stretches back decades. But the landowners argue that irresponsible campers pose a threat to both the environment and the livestock on their land, and they imply it is those irresponsible campers that have encouraged the Darnell's to pursue this agenda. Fly camping, as it's become known, is starting to get more and more negative headlines and gain attention of landowners across the UK, especially those whose property falls within national parks. If the Dar Wells and others like them feel they have the majority of opinion on their side, they will keep pushing to change legislation somehow. This whole situation is the thin edge of the wedge. If the court favours their position, it opens up other landowners to start thinking about potentially making changes to land access we take for granted. Joining us today to unpack this issue is someone who's been at the forefront of this debate. Doctor Rose O'Neill is chief executive of the campaign for National Parks.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:03:21 So we date back to the 1930s, which was where a campaigning group of individuals and organizations came together, you know, forged out of protest, then to, campaign for the founding of National Park so we could have places where everyone could just experience, you know, the wonders of the open air. And since then, we've been campaigning to to create government funded national park authorities. And now today we campaigned to make them better for nature. Wilder. And also, so that everyone, no matter their background, can enjoy them. So access is really close to our heart.
Bob 00:04:01 With.
Bob 00:04:01 Covid and the effect that's had on everybody. I think most people have come out of it realizing open spaces are a much more valuable asset than they perhaps considered in the past.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:04:12 Yeah, we saw this, sort of huge upswell in terms of public attitudes and time and connection with nature during the pandemic period. And, and, since then it's remained really strong. You know, people just absolutely love our national parks. And, you know, the people are getting out and and walking and paddleboarding and swimming and, you know, all sorts of, activities to just get out and, and including camping to, to enjoy these places.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:04:43 So very and and not only that, there's a huge amount of scientific evidence now that shows that this is really good for us, right? So it's really good for our mental health and our physical health. Yeah.
Bob 00:04:54 I live on the edge of the Malvern Hills here, which is another area which is sort of run by a body, although it's not classed as a national park. And I certainly during the Covid periods saw a wealth of people come from quite some distance to get there, stretch their legs and get some fresh air. And since then you can see the popularity and how busy the different car parks are and so on. So I think it's it's we've been reminded, should we say, since the 30s, the 30s, obviously it was a very important part of their, of our historical well-being. And we've sort of fallen into a lull perhaps over the last 60 or 70 years. And now we've actually been reminded once again, just how important the open air access to the fresh spaces and how important it is to our health.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:05:41 Yeah. And when when national parks were founded in legislation, 75 years ago, back in 1949, it was part of the sort of post-war reconstruction of Britain. And it was very much thought of, of them being the, the sort of natural health service. So you had the NHS that was founded then and the national parks were, were part of that because they just recognised how important it was to have places that every, every citizen, no matter their background, could get out and enjoy and access for, for health reasons. So it's it. We've come full circle in a way, and it's almost, you know, it's even more relevant now. I think, given we've come out of the pandemic, especially with young people, there's, you know, real, you know, mental health issues that we're still working through after that, that, that pandemic. So it's really important now to lots of people, which is why, you know, people are just absolutely captured and outraged by what's happened, and happening in the about the court case in Dartmoor, because it sort of speaks to something really deep.
Bob 00:06:44 Indeed.
Bob 00:06:45 And and that's obviously what I wanted to come on to, really. The sitting was, what, two days ago at the Supreme Court and as I understand this now, and please correct me if I got my details wrong, but this is the final decision now. It's been to court, it's been appealed, it's been repealed, and now this is the final decision. So after this decision is made, it's now fixed, whatever it may be.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:07:07 Yeah. And that's why it's taken. They've taken it to the highest court in the land. And so there's a huge amount riding on this decision. The, the five judges that were hearing that on Tuesday, you know, what they come up with will, you know, could set a not only sort of constrain or enable, depending on how it goes, the future of access on Dartmoor. But it could have ripple effects across the country too.
Bob 00:07:31 And what kind of ripple effects are you, are you talking about.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:07:35 Well, in, in terms of well, one of the things that we were just absolutely amazed by on Tuesday is the, the arguments being put forward by, Mr. Dawes lawyers, which were that not only, they were arguing, is it illegal to wild camp on Dartmoor, even though there's been such a, you know, many, many years of practice and.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:07:57 Right. They're not only they're arguing wild camping was illegal, but they were saying, you know, sitting, eating a sandwich, stopping for a picnic, you know, looking at the view. They were arguing those were effective. If you did that on Dartmoor, you'd be trespassing, too. So you know that that takes us into a whole different ballgame. Really. it could affect a huge number of activities for a huge number of people.
Bob 00:08:21 And I think believe you were there at the time. Did any of these arguments sort of hold together at all, or were they really sort of spurious? Basically, they just don't like people doing it.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:08:32 We were we were outside the court at the time. Then we had a rally with the stars of everyone, and, and members of the public came out and supported that. so, so I didn't hear the ins and outs of the, of the of how the judges, and how the, the legal arguments went down.
Bob 00:08:48 Right. I've just been looking in a few headlines that I picked up off of various news reports.
Bob 00:08:52 And certainly, as you say, I couldn't believe the one where it says, you know, even picnicking is deemed to be illegal. So as our country is owned by everybody owns something somewhere. And obviously the national parks, not just Dartmoor, but the national parks around the country as well, especially up in the Lake District, which is extremely popular with people. That land is presumably owned by numerous landowners. Would the results from this case, if it goes against the whole wild camping while enjoying yourself and enjoying the outdoors, really? Does that mean that those landowners also could suddenly say, you now need a permit or we don't allow you or whatever?
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:09:32 So the the legal case on Dartmoor is, specifically focused on the Dartmoor Commons Act of 1985. So there's this piece of special legislation in Dartmoor, which is why at the moment, you know, for a long time we've had the right to wild camp on Dartmoor, where we don't have it elsewhere. So in one sense, the argument is the legal argument is very much, made about dark Dartmoor.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:09:56 But, you know, win or lose, really, it could embolden and have implications for elsewhere. So for example, it may, you know, if we lost the case, then it may, result in other landowners looking at different, access rights in different national parks and seeing what they can challenge. But actually, we think that there could be a real opportunity here, you know, win or lose, to actually really recognise that we need to really, we need new legislation that really sort of sets out these rights really clearly, to, ensure that we can wild camping and sit and watch birds on Dartmoor, but also extend that, to the other national parks as well.
Bob 00:10:39 Yeah.
Bob 00:10:40 I think there's been a lot of activity I've certainly been aware of, probably coming out again out of Covid and people's change of attitude and awareness of the countryside being there and what a great facility it is. But obviously there are lots of young people coming into the countryside that perhaps don't understand the rules, as they say in inverted commas, and are approaching wild camping not as well as they could do.
Bob 00:11:02 And while camping is a is, a is a very common topic, and it's certainly one that gives a lot of people a lot of pleasure. And it is technically illegal because obviously it's a civil offence. But if this changes, I wonder if the whole attitude towards it would be pressurised by the the influential landowners to try and make it a criminal offence as opposed to civil offence. And that changes the whole ball game. This is my sort of my concern really. Between the lines.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:11:28 Yeah. And I think that the point you touched on there, I mean I think it's really, you know, there's a really, really long tradition and very active, tradition today of wild camping across all, all of the national parks. you know, how would you walk the Pennines way, You know, the whole trail. I mean, if you don't, if you don't put your tent on your back and camp overnight because there aren't, you know, these are real sort of wild, you know, wilderness places.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:11:58 So you so you need to carry your stuff with you if you're going to attempt that kind of thing. And so we know it happens a lot. I think one of the things where so many wild campers are so good that, you know, there's a real leave no trace culture. So, so many people will leave no trace. And, and that's really, really great. But I think one of the things that could like, you know, potentially if we can, use this as an opportunity to call for and extend access and wild camping rights to other places, one of the really good things about that is then we could legitimize that activity and by legitimizing it, you know, support people to do it better. And, you know, and and with education and, and, you know, and Ranger service etc. and that actually that's what they've done in Scotland. And that's been really, really successful.
Bob 00:12:48 Yes. Yeah.
Bob 00:12:48 I mean, I visited Scotland quite a few times and, and traveled and camped up there.
Bob 00:12:52 Certainly. Unfortunately, the other side of the coin is down by Loch Lomond, which is the easy access has been abused and they've had to put a sort of a cap on where you can and can't camp where, although the rest of Scotland is, is fairly open and as far as I understand it, there's apart from Loch Lomond, there's not really been any areas where it has caused a serious problem. There's obviously a few people that don't appreciate the wilds and treat them as well as they should be, but, you know, it's education really. I see that sort of my role at the moment is almost explain the situation to people and hopefully educate them to consider that, in fact, it is to everyone's benefit if it is kept as pristine as possible.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:13:33 The examples that are put forward of why, you know, wild camping can be damaging to the environment and I think, you know, done badly. These you with all sorts of anti-social behaviour. These things, you know, can cause damage, you know, but I think there's a it's important to differentiate between, you know, what we're fighting for and Dartmoor at the moment, which is wild camping, where you put your tent on your back and you walk and you and you or you ride or you, you know, and you and then you camp and then you pack up again.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:14:03 So it's very small footprint compared to some of the issues that I think they had in Loch Lomond, which is people with campervans and tents and cars and just coming out of the city and having a big party. I mean, that's very, very different actually, to the, to the wild camping rights that we're talking about. And I think it's yeah, it's sort of apples and pears and it's, important to educate in terms of what are we talking about here, in terms of what rights do we have. And in Scotland, it's very much the sort of backpack on your back.
Voice Over 00:14:36 Podcasting around the world, it's all about.
Voice Over 00:14:40 Getting out and having much more fun.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:14:45 This is the outdoor station.
Bob 00:14:50 But I suppose, as you say, if there's one thing that's coming out of this from a positive point of view is the fact that he's raising it in a public concern. It's certainly I'm surprised it's not popping up as much on the southern national press as much as it did during the initial stages, but I'm hopefully that it will gather in momentum.
Bob 00:15:07 And and because it's in the public eye, it'll be open for conversation for people who are urban based to understand a little bit more that if this does change, it changes an awful lot of things if we're not careful.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:15:20 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think also so they're a labor. But when they were in opposition, they did say that if if these rights are lost in the courts, then they would table legislation to, to change the law to, to create, you know, to to re-establish those rights and extend those rights. And so we're now really looking to the government and just watching what they do. They've they've talked about having a an access green paper and an access agenda. They talked about that. So, so now, as campaigners, we're looking not just to the courts but also to the government to see how they will respond and react and, and set out a programme of activity and legislation.
Bob 00:16:03 That's, that's a really positive to hear. So presumably you've got good contacts with the government then they're listening to you and they're giving you the right sort of signals.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:16:12 Yeah. And and we had we were really lucky. We had, MPs from different parties join us at the rally outside the Supreme Court on Tuesday as well, talking about how they were going to, also sort of build a caucus of support in Westminster for this and talk to the government about it, too. So, you know, in many ways, I left on, Tuesday, on one hand, sort of outraged on the arguments inside, but really, really uplifted, and motivated by the sort of coming together of people outside who just were going to, you know, from all different walks of life, including parliamentarians, about how we're going to take this forward.
Bob 00:16:52 Well, that's fabulous, because that's something that just hasn't appeared on the national news, has it?
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:16:57 Yeah. And there's lots I mean, there's lots that we can all do. Maybe, you know, if your listeners are, you can join the the campaign for National Parks or the stars are for everyone. and, you know, there's a lot of ways that different people can get involved in this as well.
Bob 00:17:10 I was going to say, what's what is the best way to take action and apply pressure where at all possible?
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:17:16 I mean, at this stage, I think, you know, if people want to write to their, their local MP to to flag their concerns, and they can do that through, you know, our website which is CMP, org UK, or they can join like I say, a campaign group. stars are for everyone that they're on Instagram. And one of the things that I think has been really powerful actually during this campaign is just people sharing their experiences of why this matters and why this, why they really value the right to world camp on Dartmoor. And for so many people, you know, from all different backgrounds and for so many, children and young people too, you know, those experiences have been life changing. And so the more people can share and, and share their stories and share their photos, etc., with the stars there for everyone campaign and that that really just helps to build momentum to challenge in Parliament.
Bob 00:18:13 Excellent. Thank you. And is there a timescale on the judgement now? Have they got an X amount of days to return a result.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:18:22 We just don't know. It's it will take a few months. So we're just waiting. Waiting eagerly to hear.
Bob 00:18:30 Okay. And on a positive note, which national parks are sort of really doing well at the moment. You're obviously involved with all the different national parks. What's the general mood amongst them all?
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:18:41 Just to start with Dartmoor National Park Authority, I think they've just been really bold and really brave and just done us all proud by fighting this case and taking this case, you know, it's not often that a public body will take a case all the way up to a Supreme Court to defend, defend the public's right. So I think they should be absolutely applauded for what they're doing. But if we look around the country, there are so many different, you know, so many different, initiatives. I was really lucky, actually. Last in the last couple of weeks, I've been up in Northumberland with the National Park Authority and seeing what they're doing there to work with, people in Newcastle, you know, refugee communities to, to engage them in the national park, but also is incredibly moved by the exhibition that they've done at the the cell to commemorate the, the one year since the illegal felling of the Sycamore Gap tree.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:19:35 And, and I think again, what they'd done to to create a space for the community and the public to sort of share what that meant to them and, you know, and how Life-Changing that place was to so many people, I thought was really, really inspiring.
Bob 00:19:51 Yes. I mean, that was a tragedy. But again, something that brought the national parks to the awareness of people that hadn't really considered it, just what an impact it made. And it was certainly there was a national outcry when that happened. Does that sort of come to a conclusion? Whoever was responsible for that, has that been brought to court?
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:20:09 I think it's going to court in December. I don't I'm not close enough to the detail. So I think it's going to court the two individuals concerned who arrested it, going to court in December.
Bob 00:20:20 Coming back to the Dartmoor National Park. Obviously it's costing them to challenge this case, and I understand that they're seeking financial assistance for that as well. People made a lot of donations towards the court case, which is best part of half a million.
Bob 00:20:34 I understand.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:20:36 Yeah, it's a huge amount of money. That's because, you know, they've had to pay for lawyers to go to all the way up to the highest court in the land. the Dartmoor Preservation Association, which is a brilliant, local charity on Dartmoor that dates back to sort of, you know, over a hundred years they've been campaigning and, and, working to protect Dartmoor. So that charity has run a crowdfunder on behalf of the National Park Authority to raise money. And they've raised about £200,000, from largely from individuals or so far, which is just incredibly, you know, just amazing. You know, lots and lots of people from all over the country have pitched in and put a few quid into to go for that fighting fund. So, so that's really great. People can still donate to that. if you go to the Dartmoor Preservation Association's website, you can. That's where the crowdfunder is. and what's interesting about that is obviously, if the case is lost, then all of that money needs to go to pay legal fees.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:21:38 But if the case is one, then that money can go to and will go to supporting, you know, young people and you know, and children etc. to get out and experience Dartmoor for the first time. So it's a really great initiative and, and hopefully we won't have to pay lots of lawyers with that money. We can have great lots of new opportunities for people to experience Dartmoor, and that would be a great way to celebrate winning, winning in court as well.
Bob 00:22:08 Fantastic. Well, I'll put the links for both that and yourself obviously in the show notes as well. And so just to sort of end on a positive note, the future of national parks around the country, is it looking fairly positive this sort of legal case aside, is it looking positive at the moment?
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:22:25 Yeah, I think if you you know, there's so much happening in all the different national parks in terms of, you know, people and communities coming together to make national parks more nature rich, to make them more inclusive places.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:22:37 And we know, so many people, you know, 100 million people get out every year and experience and the national parks. So there's huge amount, of positivity. I mean, we do know that national parks are not exempt from the nature and climate crisis. You know, nature is declining as fast or in some cases even faster than elsewhere inside the national parks. So we still need a lot of action. And we're really looking for the government this year. I mean, this year, as I said, it's the 75th anniversary of a labor government creating radical national park legislation. So we're really looking to them to make sure that they can set out the powers and the money that we need for national parks to really thrive.
Bob 00:23:20 And if somebody is interested in volunteering in some way, I take it all the national parks have different volunteer associations linked to them.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:23:27 Yeah, there's a really, vibrant network of friends societies of of national parks. I mentioned Dartmoor Preservation Association. You know, if you're down in Dartmoor, they run regular, volunteering days.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:23:40 But, these kind of activities happen all around the national parks do. So if people are interested again, they can look on our website and we can point you to the to your local national park society.
Bob 00:23:53 Excellent.
Bob 00:23:53 I do have one final question, which is, of all the things I could have asked you about the legal case relating to the Dartmoor situation currently, what should I have asked you?
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:24:05 Oh, that's a good question.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:24:09 The only thing I would add to this is just like why it really matters. And I think that so many people would have, different responses to that. And for me personally, you know, when I was growing up, camping under the stars was just such a way to, to, have a deep connection to the nature and the land, which I wouldn't have got. I mean, I grew up in a council estate. I mean, I didn't get that where I grew up. So being able to get out to places like Dartmoor and be right out under, you know, under the darkest skies in the, you know, the most open and wild landscapes we have in this country that, that was that was really life changing for me, but also for so many people.
Dr Rose O'Neill 00:24:50 So I think it really matters. This case really matters not just on a sort of, legal precedent case, but it really deeply matters to us, as in terms of our connection to nature and our belonging in, in, in the place. So, yeah, that's what I just add to that.
Bob 00:25:10 And that surely is the crux of the matter, our connection to nature and the depth of that connection deep within our souls. My thanks to Doctor Rosenthal for taking the time to talk to us. And she's obviously passionate about the subject as much as we are, and we want to ensure that we all do what we can to maintain our access to the wild, open spaces. It is perhaps something that many people just didn't realize was as important as it is until Covid came along, and they could see for themselves the true value of open green spaces. So where do we take it from here? Well, there are various actions we can take. As doctor O'Neill stated during the campaign for National Parks, perhaps make a small contribution to the Dartmoor fundraising efforts, which will go to either the court fees or into the Dartmoor Preservation Association, depending on how the court case resolves.
Bob 00:26:17 But finally, and this is probably the most important, and maybe the hardest thing to do is to be more proactive when you see irresponsible wild camping Campaign activity, either online or in person. Now we all like to promote our outdoor lifestyles, but unless we reduce the negative press it's getting, I feel this will keep rearing its head in different forms for many years to come. All the links to everything that's been discussed will be in the show notes wherever you hear this, so please check out the website, the Outdoor station. Co.Uk or the Linktree associated with these posts on social media. Stay tuned folks, as there's more content coming very soon. Until then, take care out there and.
Bob 00:27:04 Bye.
Bob 00:27:06 For now.
Voice Over 00:27:09 Thank you for listening to this podcast. To hear or see more from our extensive free library, please visit the outdoors station. Co.Uk.